| farting in your general direction lip reading the italian mid-fielder who provoked zidane. sounds like enough to put a proud man over the edge. i could imagine someone like pele brushing off a rascist slur, especially considering the relative importance of a world cup final, but i cant hold it against zidane for acting out. meanwhile 80% of the french team were black whereas i did not see one person of color on the italian team. dont know if this just means france was a colonial power while the italians were still disunited, or if italy isnt very hospitable to black people.
oh yeah, the theme of this particular world cup was 'say no to racism.' looks like someone didnt get the memo. viva italia!
I'm amazed by the response to this. I think Zidane is an idiot. That headbutt was Mickelson-idiotic. What was he thinking?
Kottke, for instance, thought it was a stupid move at first, but now he says he thinks *more* of Zidane then he did before because of what was said to him. WTF?
If you really are in favor of violence in retaliation for a verbal slur (really? Jason?) then at least he should have waited until after the game and attacked him in the parking lot of something (I'm kidding, but not so much...) This was the final of the world cup. It was pretty obviously going to be decided in a shoot out. Zidane is awesome at shoot outs. WTF was he thinking?
Obviously not about his team winning. Therefore he is not a good soccer player (or not as good as he could be if he only cared about winning.) Save your personal grudges for your own time. Really really unprofessional. I am dismayed by people's positive reaction.
And also - just to belabor the point way too much - even if you were in favor of "hard play" a la Pete Rose ending a catchers career to score a run in a meaningless all star game: Zidane didn't even take the guy out with the headbutt! I mean, at least injure the guy. WTFBBQ? (Note, I'm not for that style of play, but I'm just saying that this argument doesn't even apply to this useless headbutt.)
mickelson is a choker. he is his own worst enemy. i suppose you could make a case that zinades pride is his, but this would be more akin to phil calling tiger a chink-eyed nigger as hes walking up to the 18th at augusta. i agree that the response was unprofessional, and he should be used to it by now if its so endemic to the game, but id say its less a personal grudge than an affront to what we consider civil behavior (not that headbutting is considered all that civil). thats why some might rally behind zidane. people like to see bullys get what they deserve and, in this case, instant justice was meted out. after all, the world cup is just a silly game.
Yeah, I don't know why I'm so worked up by this. It just doesn't seem like "justice" to me. He headbutted him: so what? Is the guy in the hospital? Will he never play again? No. So what was the point? Knocking a guy down isn't going to make him reconsider his choices in verbal rejoinders. You'd have to really hurt him. Or worse.
But better would have been to just ignore the trolls. It's hard to do sometimes, but that should be what separates the professionals from the amateurs. A pro shouldn't lose his head. Phil should have never taken out the driver on 18. It was just a mental error. I think Zidane's headbutt was a mental error of similar magnitude. It's like he actually thinks the world cup is just a silly game.
The other theory - advanced by Andrew right after it happened in response to my not shutting up about how stupid Zidane was - is that he is old, and his legs were completely gone by that point in the game, and he knew in that condition he would be ineffective in the shoot out. So he purposefully got himself ejected. Sounds like a stretch, but that would at least make some sense.
As for Phil calling Tiger a name, I would wager rather heavily that Tiger would turn away, walk up to the next tee, and smack it right down the middle. That's real revenge. Winning. And if he felt that the comment had upset him, I'm sure he'd put the driver away and hit that 2 iron stinger right down the middle. He's a pro. I'm not sure what Zidane is.
Okay, I promise I'm done with this now. Thanks for bringing it up and giving me some place to dump all this.
In the local paper they had some pictures from the game, including the head butt, and picture of the Italian team celebrating after the win. The buttee was in both pictures.
Win the game. Then work out your anger.
that head butt was the most popular Livejournal animated GIF for days.
i can always count on steve.
steve makes a good case.
Is it really the case, as Gilliard suggests, that all minority men have a rougher lot in life than women? I'm not saying it's not true, but isn't that sort of a weird thing to just say right out? As if there's no question about it? How would you ever judge such a thing?
Also, the voting on the award was done at half time, before the head butt, so he's got that wrong.
His conclusion is that Zidane did the wrong thing. But the tone of the piece is obviously taking Zidane's side. I found it very confusing. What is he saying exactly? Zidane was wrong to do it, but shit happens, and since he's a minority male it's okay and no non minority (non male?) is allowed to second guess his actions?
And even if we admit all that, which I don't, his conclusion is still screwy. Apparently it's okay for Zidane to do this because it's striking a blow against a history racism. That's fine except it was a very very lame blow. So even on that score I don't understand.
Strange that I have such a different take on it. I guess I'm missing something.
I'm not a member of an oppressed minority, although some of my "dirty Irish" ancenstors may have been. Having grown up in the South, I have seen the hatred directed to African Americans from close quarters. So I have some empathy for the situation. Some words cross the line. Some words are "fighting words".
Jim Louis has seen how the kids from Dumaine have hardened themselves to crackers calling them "niggars". Good for them to have the equanimity to shrug that off. But he's right that it carries a lot more baggage than being called "whitie".
My take: Zidane should have settled his score later. But if he was on the receiving end of words vicious enough to be construed as fighting words, I have some sympathy for his reaction.
Also, Steve Gillard understands what it's like to be a woman about as well as I understand being an Inuit. It's not just him. Almost all men don't get it. I know I don't, despite trying.
i think zidane was a popular player and people wanted to find something to mitigate the overwhelming feeling of ill will towards him for his admitedly selfish unprofessional behavior. you may think his actions constitute a lame blow because the opposing player wasnt taken out by the headbutt, however the italian victory will always have this hanging over it, and it became a teaching moment of sorts, as we've all had to judge the outcome. not that zidane had this in mind, he was just fed up.
its easy to see that his actions were ultimately wrong yet still sympathize with him. id say he was justified, but wrongheaded because of the consequences regarding the game, not because he sought an immediate violent reprisal. you could obviously make the case that lashing out solves nothing, and you are welcome to.
Yglesias thought it was cool, and not at all lame from an inflicting damage point of view. I think he's just going for laughs though.
I see what you're saying Dave, that makes sense. I wasn't really arguing that lashing out doesn't solve anything (sometimes it does,) but just that it wasn't smart in terms of winning the game, and therefore it makes him a worse athlete than he might have been (which seems a shame since otherwise he really is a great player.)
Okay, can someone ban me from this thread?
i thought it was funny for a soccer player to attack someone with his head. it must be engrained in him never to use his hands on the field.
and if you want to be banned youll have to headbutt the screen, then we can issue you a red card. youll be prohibited from commenting on my next post as well. that really doesnt seem like much of a penalty though.
Canticle Addressed To Those Who Would Watch Televised Sports
The indignation imbeciles
Would rather fight than switch;
Like you wanted France to win
You Hezzbollah kike nigger bitch.
Viva Italia.
|
oh yeah, the theme of this particular world cup was 'say no to racism.' looks like someone didnt get the memo. viva italia!
- dave 7-11-2006 7:35 pm
I'm amazed by the response to this. I think Zidane is an idiot. That headbutt was Mickelson-idiotic. What was he thinking?
Kottke, for instance, thought it was a stupid move at first, but now he says he thinks *more* of Zidane then he did before because of what was said to him. WTF?
If you really are in favor of violence in retaliation for a verbal slur (really? Jason?) then at least he should have waited until after the game and attacked him in the parking lot of something (I'm kidding, but not so much...) This was the final of the world cup. It was pretty obviously going to be decided in a shoot out. Zidane is awesome at shoot outs. WTF was he thinking?
Obviously not about his team winning. Therefore he is not a good soccer player (or not as good as he could be if he only cared about winning.) Save your personal grudges for your own time. Really really unprofessional. I am dismayed by people's positive reaction.
And also - just to belabor the point way too much - even if you were in favor of "hard play" a la Pete Rose ending a catchers career to score a run in a meaningless all star game: Zidane didn't even take the guy out with the headbutt! I mean, at least injure the guy. WTFBBQ? (Note, I'm not for that style of play, but I'm just saying that this argument doesn't even apply to this useless headbutt.)
- jim 7-11-2006 8:29 pm
mickelson is a choker. he is his own worst enemy. i suppose you could make a case that zinades pride is his, but this would be more akin to phil calling tiger a chink-eyed nigger as hes walking up to the 18th at augusta. i agree that the response was unprofessional, and he should be used to it by now if its so endemic to the game, but id say its less a personal grudge than an affront to what we consider civil behavior (not that headbutting is considered all that civil). thats why some might rally behind zidane. people like to see bullys get what they deserve and, in this case, instant justice was meted out. after all, the world cup is just a silly game.
- dave 7-11-2006 9:18 pm
Yeah, I don't know why I'm so worked up by this. It just doesn't seem like "justice" to me. He headbutted him: so what? Is the guy in the hospital? Will he never play again? No. So what was the point? Knocking a guy down isn't going to make him reconsider his choices in verbal rejoinders. You'd have to really hurt him. Or worse.
But better would have been to just ignore the trolls. It's hard to do sometimes, but that should be what separates the professionals from the amateurs. A pro shouldn't lose his head. Phil should have never taken out the driver on 18. It was just a mental error. I think Zidane's headbutt was a mental error of similar magnitude. It's like he actually thinks the world cup is just a silly game.
The other theory - advanced by Andrew right after it happened in response to my not shutting up about how stupid Zidane was - is that he is old, and his legs were completely gone by that point in the game, and he knew in that condition he would be ineffective in the shoot out. So he purposefully got himself ejected. Sounds like a stretch, but that would at least make some sense.
As for Phil calling Tiger a name, I would wager rather heavily that Tiger would turn away, walk up to the next tee, and smack it right down the middle. That's real revenge. Winning. And if he felt that the comment had upset him, I'm sure he'd put the driver away and hit that 2 iron stinger right down the middle. He's a pro. I'm not sure what Zidane is.
Okay, I promise I'm done with this now. Thanks for bringing it up and giving me some place to dump all this.
- jim 7-11-2006 10:20 pm
In the local paper they had some pictures from the game, including the head butt, and picture of the Italian team celebrating after the win. The buttee was in both pictures.
Win the game. Then work out your anger.
- mark 7-12-2006 12:10 am
that head butt was the most popular Livejournal animated GIF for days.
- tom moody 7-12-2006 12:12 am
- tom moody 7-12-2006 12:13 am
i can always count on steve.
- dave 7-12-2006 11:54 am
steve makes a good case.
- mark 7-12-2006 10:44 pm
Is it really the case, as Gilliard suggests, that all minority men have a rougher lot in life than women? I'm not saying it's not true, but isn't that sort of a weird thing to just say right out? As if there's no question about it? How would you ever judge such a thing?
Also, the voting on the award was done at half time, before the head butt, so he's got that wrong.
His conclusion is that Zidane did the wrong thing. But the tone of the piece is obviously taking Zidane's side. I found it very confusing. What is he saying exactly? Zidane was wrong to do it, but shit happens, and since he's a minority male it's okay and no non minority (non male?) is allowed to second guess his actions?
And even if we admit all that, which I don't, his conclusion is still screwy. Apparently it's okay for Zidane to do this because it's striking a blow against a history racism. That's fine except it was a very very lame blow. So even on that score I don't understand.
Strange that I have such a different take on it. I guess I'm missing something.
- jim 7-12-2006 11:06 pm
I'm not a member of an oppressed minority, although some of my "dirty Irish" ancenstors may have been. Having grown up in the South, I have seen the hatred directed to African Americans from close quarters. So I have some empathy for the situation. Some words cross the line. Some words are "fighting words".
Jim Louis has seen how the kids from Dumaine have hardened themselves to crackers calling them "niggars". Good for them to have the equanimity to shrug that off. But he's right that it carries a lot more baggage than being called "whitie".
My take: Zidane should have settled his score later. But if he was on the receiving end of words vicious enough to be construed as fighting words, I have some sympathy for his reaction.
Also, Steve Gillard understands what it's like to be a woman about as well as I understand being an Inuit. It's not just him. Almost all men don't get it. I know I don't, despite trying.
- mark 7-12-2006 11:35 pm
i think zidane was a popular player and people wanted to find something to mitigate the overwhelming feeling of ill will towards him for his admitedly selfish unprofessional behavior. you may think his actions constitute a lame blow because the opposing player wasnt taken out by the headbutt, however the italian victory will always have this hanging over it, and it became a teaching moment of sorts, as we've all had to judge the outcome. not that zidane had this in mind, he was just fed up.
its easy to see that his actions were ultimately wrong yet still sympathize with him. id say he was justified, but wrongheaded because of the consequences regarding the game, not because he sought an immediate violent reprisal. you could obviously make the case that lashing out solves nothing, and you are welcome to.
- dave 7-13-2006 12:46 am
Yglesias thought it was cool, and not at all lame from an inflicting damage point of view. I think he's just going for laughs though.
I see what you're saying Dave, that makes sense. I wasn't really arguing that lashing out doesn't solve anything (sometimes it does,) but just that it wasn't smart in terms of winning the game, and therefore it makes him a worse athlete than he might have been (which seems a shame since otherwise he really is a great player.)
Okay, can someone ban me from this thread?
- jim 7-13-2006 4:35 am
i thought it was funny for a soccer player to attack someone with his head. it must be engrained in him never to use his hands on the field.
and if you want to be banned youll have to headbutt the screen, then we can issue you a red card. youll be prohibited from commenting on my next post as well. that really doesnt seem like much of a penalty though.
- dave 7-13-2006 5:29 am
- mark 7-13-2006 6:34 am
Canticle Addressed To Those Who Would Watch Televised Sports
The indignation imbeciles
Would rather fight than switch;
Like you wanted France to win
You Hezzbollah kike nigger bitch.
Viva Italia.
- Erection Lasting Longer Than F (guest) 8-08-2006 8:53 am