arktype according to bill james the two greatest shortstops played with the pittsburgh pirates. i knew honus wagner was considered the best ever but i never would have come up with #2.
James didn’t come up with him either in 1986 when the first edition of the Historical Baseball Abstract had him #4 in peak value and #8 in career value for shortstops. The main question is what happened to Ernie Banks who outranked Vaughan on both lists. Looks like James is convinced that statistical formulas are much improved and now trump subjective contemporary judgments. At the time Vaughan was discounted due to inflated stats of the ‘30s while Mr. Cub got credit for winning awards while playing on a 2nd division team.
Hans is probably the only deadball position player (other than Cobb, a sociopath) who’s maintained his reputation for the entire century past (not even counting his ahead of the curve anti-tobacco stance.)
This is not good for Derek Jeter.
somewhere along the line he developed win shares. plus much of banks career was at first base. also vaughn lost 3 years to ww2. ultimately james thinking became more nuanced. although win shares is not universally beloved among the sabr crowd. arod would likely have surpassed wagner were it not for jeter who is generally considered overrated by the statheads, mostly because his defense is considered subpar which diminishes his overall value. clutchness is not considered a stat in their world, or at least it hasnt been easily quantifiable.
I went to high school with the bussed from Dallas Pinkston MUCH younger brother of Ernie Banks, Donald, an amazing basketball player who lacked the academics, and apparently the desire, to progress beyond HS.
Top Shortstops
1. Honus Wagner-With 656 win shares, Wagner is far ahead of the pack
2. Cal Ripken-Ripken finished with 427
3. Robin Yount-Yount finished with 423, but he played the second half of his career in the outfield
4. Alex Rodriguez- The best player of his generation, A-rod now has 389 win shares, just before his 31st birthday. He doesn’t play shortstop anymore, but most of his win shares came from that position. Besides, he may switch back at some point in the future. Regardless, he certainly will finish his career with an immense number of win shares, well into the 500s, and maybe even 600. The only question will be whether to classify him as a shortstop or third basemen. If he is classified a third basemen, he will likely be rated as the greatest of all time. If a shortstop, he will rank second only to Wagner.
5. Luke Appling- Appling finished with 378 win shares. He missed some time in World War Two, but also benefited from weak competition in 1942 while many players were serving in the military.
6. Arky Vaughan-An often-forgotten star for the Pittsburgh Pirates, Vaughan finished with 356 win shares. Like Appling he missed some time due to the Second World War, but he was winding down his career, and in fact benefited from weak competition in 1942 and ’43 while many players were serving in the military. I doubt he would have accumulated more than a handful of additional win shares.
7. Ernie Banks- Mr. Cub finished with 332, although a good number of those were while playing first base.
8. Ozzie Smith-The Wizard of Oz, generally considered the greatest defensive shortstop ever, finished with 325 win shares.
9. Alan Trammel-Trammel finished with 318, slightly fewer than Ozzie, but that hasn’t helped him get into the Hall of Fame yet.
10. Barry Larkin- Mr. Red finished with 314. Despite similar career numbers, I suspect HOF voters may favor him over Trammel.
speaking of bill james, he has a new book out and a subscriptioned based website thats recently launched. heres an interview with time that just went up.
statman corothers
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- dave 3-06-2008 10:34 pm
James didn’t come up with him either in 1986 when the first edition of the Historical Baseball Abstract had him #4 in peak value and #8 in career value for shortstops. The main question is what happened to Ernie Banks who outranked Vaughan on both lists. Looks like James is convinced that statistical formulas are much improved and now trump subjective contemporary judgments. At the time Vaughan was discounted due to inflated stats of the ‘30s while Mr. Cub got credit for winning awards while playing on a 2nd division team.
Hans is probably the only deadball position player (other than Cobb, a sociopath) who’s maintained his reputation for the entire century past (not even counting his ahead of the curve anti-tobacco stance.)
- alex 3-07-2008 4:06 am
This is not good for Derek Jeter.
- alex 3-07-2008 4:13 am
somewhere along the line he developed win shares. plus much of banks career was at first base. also vaughn lost 3 years to ww2. ultimately james thinking became more nuanced. although win shares is not universally beloved among the sabr crowd. arod would likely have surpassed wagner were it not for jeter who is generally considered overrated by the statheads, mostly because his defense is considered subpar which diminishes his overall value. clutchness is not considered a stat in their world, or at least it hasnt been easily quantifiable.
- dave 3-07-2008 4:47 am
I went to high school with the bussed from Dallas Pinkston MUCH younger brother of Ernie Banks, Donald, an amazing basketball player who lacked the academics, and apparently the desire, to progress beyond HS.
- jimlouis 3-07-2008 4:47 am
Top Shortstops
1. Honus Wagner-With 656 win shares, Wagner is far ahead of the pack
2. Cal Ripken-Ripken finished with 427
3. Robin Yount-Yount finished with 423, but he played the second half of his career in the outfield
4. Alex Rodriguez- The best player of his generation, A-rod now has 389 win shares, just before his 31st birthday. He doesn’t play shortstop anymore, but most of his win shares came from that position. Besides, he may switch back at some point in the future. Regardless, he certainly will finish his career with an immense number of win shares, well into the 500s, and maybe even 600. The only question will be whether to classify him as a shortstop or third basemen. If he is classified a third basemen, he will likely be rated as the greatest of all time. If a shortstop, he will rank second only to Wagner.
5. Luke Appling- Appling finished with 378 win shares. He missed some time in World War Two, but also benefited from weak competition in 1942 while many players were serving in the military.
6. Arky Vaughan-An often-forgotten star for the Pittsburgh Pirates, Vaughan finished with 356 win shares. Like Appling he missed some time due to the Second World War, but he was winding down his career, and in fact benefited from weak competition in 1942 and ’43 while many players were serving in the military. I doubt he would have accumulated more than a handful of additional win shares.
7. Ernie Banks- Mr. Cub finished with 332, although a good number of those were while playing first base.
8. Ozzie Smith-The Wizard of Oz, generally considered the greatest defensive shortstop ever, finished with 325 win shares.
9. Alan Trammel-Trammel finished with 318, slightly fewer than Ozzie, but that hasn’t helped him get into the Hall of Fame yet.
10. Barry Larkin- Mr. Red finished with 314. Despite similar career numbers, I suspect HOF voters may favor him over Trammel.
- dave 3-07-2008 5:04 am
speaking of bill james, he has a new book out and a subscriptioned based website thats recently launched. heres an interview with time that just went up.
- dave 3-07-2008 5:08 pm
statman corothers
- dave 3-28-2008 1:21 am