From Better to Have Loved, by Judith Merril and Emily Pohl-Weary, Between the Lines, Toronto, 2002. pp.237
"Somehow it is hard to write this. I don't mind talking about sex, which is important, or personal love, much more important, or love for space and adventure, which many people think is childish or "escapist" or even "reactionary"; but I am oddly shy about proclaiming that love for humanity and passionate social anger that is called idealist ideaology."
In Return of the King, Aragorn says to Eowyn: "It is nothing but a shadow and a thought that you
love. I cannot give you what you seek."
The line strikes a chord, but I like what my friend nanmac has to say about it: "it really is harsh. to judge someone's love
like that. like eveyone else's love is so
accurately loving what is essential about a person."
Ultimately, I prefer Judith Merril's challenge to LOTR's romantic notions, much as I like to let myself get carried away.
hey! that is cool to be quoted on your blog.
i have been thinking about the LOTR's quote.
it is such a striking line. it definitely stands out.
interested to know if tolkien wrote it or
the screenplayerist
bad link on the main post.
The second sentence of the Aragorn line is bluntly informative. The first is patronizing!
thanks Tom. Link fixed
I thought Aragorn was a little harsh there too. You don't love me you just love the "idea" of me, besides I'm an elf-fucker - now out of my way, human.
It's not you, it's me.
Earlier I posted a quote here from from Roland Barthes', A Lover's Discourse, but I've removed it cause I think it's insidious and I don't really want it on my blog. But it certainly informs that quote of Aragorn's so if anyone is interested you can read it here under "The Absent One".
One New Year’s resolution is to write a full review of the LOTR movies, which might take awhile, but I can answer nanmac’s question about who wrote the lines in question, and it’s an interesting point, reflecting the way in which the filmmakers have been relatively “faithful” while tailoring the material to the contemporary audience. An impressive amount of the screenplay is almost verbatim Tolkien. However, the writers seem to have delighted in rearranging speeches, and even putting the words into different characters’ mouths. In the book there is less talk between Eowyn & Aragorn, although the basic romantic dynamic is the same. She wants to follow him on the Paths of the Dead; he says “no” in blunt terms, although the line “I cannot give you what you seek” seems to come only from the screenwriters. Eowyn replies that “all your words are but to say: you are a woman and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honor, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.” He continues to refuse, ostensibly on patriarchal grounds, since her brother and her uncle, the King, are not present to consent for her; the romantic context is only addressed obliquely, in her statement that she would follow him like the others, who do so “only because they love thee.” The rest of the quoted exchange derives from the “Houses of Healing” episode occurring later in the story (not included in the current movie; don’t know about the extended version yet to come) after the big battle in which Eowyn defeats the #1 Nazgul. Stabbing the demon sends her into a sort of toxic shock, and Aragorn comes to cure her (and others similarly afflicted.) There ensues an exchange between Aragorn, Eomer, (Eoywn’s brother) and Galdalf, in which the woman is psychologized (while she lies before them insensate.) This is a high point in the books for those interested in a “feminist” perspective on Tolkien. Aragorn goes on about how painful it was for him to have to reject her, but he also guesses that her problems go further back. Her brother Eomer is surprised, saying that, sure, times were tough, but he didn’t see her despair until she met Aragorn. Gandalf then corrects him with a great speech that was amazingly given to Wormtounge in the Two Towers movie (“the bitter watches of the night…") There it served effectively as a sort of mix of torture and seduction which expressed Wormtounge’s roll perfectly. In the book, it is Galdalf explaining that while Eomer had his warring to keep him busy, Eoywn was forced to attend powerlessly upon the declining king Theoden because she was a woman, even though she “had a spirit and courage at least the equal of yours.” But Aragorn tells Eomer that “I saw also what you saw,” but, “I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.” Beyond sexual issues, this should also be understood as a critique of the culture of Rohan (& men in general,) which glorifies war and is represented as having declined from the more civilized and learned days of the “men of old” who were in contact with the Elves and the gods. Aragorn represents this “higher” lineage, as shown by his capacity to be both a warrior and a healer, a combination which now seems contradictory. This dichotomy between the warrior and the cultured man is also expressed in Boromir and Faramir, the princes of Gondor. Eowyn is so raw that she’s not even a man, but this allows for the final resolution of the romances, in which she ends up marrying Faramir, the courtly son of Denethor, another part of the story barely acknowledged in the film. “And would you have your proud folk say of you: ‘There goes a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Numenor to choose?’ “I would,’ said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many.”
Wow, this is a great etymology. Aragorn's line changes dramatically when it's said about someone rather than to someone. I blame the "greatest hits of the book" quality the movie sometimes had.
I just skimmed the Barthes quote. "Insidious" because it reflects the sexism of the early left?
nice Alex (check A's recent 12 days of Christmas posts, very nice!), thanks so much. I remembered there was more good stuff from the book in the Aragorn/Eowyn dynamic, you've saved me from re-reading! She's a pretty great character in the book, and only okay in the film. Funny that, hollywood doing a half-assed job writing a woman's role?
As far as the insidiousness of A Lover's Discourse...yeah I guess it's sexism that's bugging me. There's a real ring of truth to the book, such that it may give comfort to people in the throws of romantic woe, but it also feels prescriptive. I started this off with a post on love by Judith Merrill (she's talking about her dear friend Milton Acorn, with whom she argued bitterly on a regular basis) that seemed to break free of convention, while at the same time accounting for passion. Not easy - our notions of love are so tied up with myths and strange narrative expectations. Reading A Lover's Discourse makes it harder to achieve the kind of confidence and clarity that I see in Merrill.
I dont see why Aragorn has to be so rude i mean he could say things like "I love another" or some shit ,but no. Why cant he be with Arwen and Eowyn 'cause its a family film.
I dont see why Aragorn has to be so rude i mean he could say things like "I love another" or some shit ,but no. Why cant he be with Arwen and Eowyn 'cause its a family film.
opps posted twice sorry.
sdfdsfdsf
works
|
From Better to Have Loved, by Judith Merril and Emily Pohl-Weary, Between the Lines, Toronto, 2002. pp.237
"Somehow it is hard to write this. I don't mind talking about sex, which is important, or personal love, much more important, or love for space and adventure, which many people think is childish or "escapist" or even "reactionary"; but I am oddly shy about proclaiming that love for humanity and passionate social anger that is called idealist ideaology."
- sally mckay 12-30-2003 6:55 pm
In Return of the King, Aragorn says to Eowyn: "It is nothing but a shadow and a thought that you love. I cannot give you what you seek."
The line strikes a chord, but I like what my friend nanmac has to say about it: "it really is harsh. to judge someone's love like that. like eveyone else's love is so accurately loving what is essential about a person."
Ultimately, I prefer Judith Merril's challenge to LOTR's romantic notions, much as I like to let myself get carried away.
- sally mckay 12-30-2003 7:02 pm
hey! that is cool to be quoted on your blog.
i have been thinking about the LOTR's quote.
it is such a striking line. it definitely stands out.
interested to know if tolkien wrote it or
the screenplayerist
- nanmac (guest) 12-30-2003 7:24 pm
bad link on the main post.
The second sentence of the Aragorn line is bluntly informative. The first is patronizing!
- tom moody 12-30-2003 7:51 pm
thanks Tom. Link fixed
- sally mckay 12-30-2003 9:41 pm
I thought Aragorn was a little harsh there too. You don't love me you just love the "idea" of me, besides I'm an elf-fucker - now out of my way, human.
- joester (guest) 12-31-2003 7:56 am
It's not you, it's me.
- mark 12-31-2003 10:48 am
Earlier I posted a quote here from from Roland Barthes', A Lover's Discourse, but I've removed it cause I think it's insidious and I don't really want it on my blog. But it certainly informs that quote of Aragorn's so if anyone is interested you can read it here under "The Absent One".
- sally mckay 12-31-2003 9:14 pm
One New Year’s resolution is to write a full review of the LOTR movies, which might take awhile, but I can answer nanmac’s question about who wrote the lines in question, and it’s an interesting point, reflecting the way in which the filmmakers have been relatively “faithful” while tailoring the material to the contemporary audience. An impressive amount of the screenplay is almost verbatim Tolkien. However, the writers seem to have delighted in rearranging speeches, and even putting the words into different characters’ mouths. In the book there is less talk between Eowyn & Aragorn, although the basic romantic dynamic is the same. She wants to follow him on the Paths of the Dead; he says “no” in blunt terms, although the line “I cannot give you what you seek” seems to come only from the screenwriters. Eowyn replies that “all your words are but to say: you are a woman and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honor, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.” He continues to refuse, ostensibly on patriarchal grounds, since her brother and her uncle, the King, are not present to consent for her; the romantic context is only addressed obliquely, in her statement that she would follow him like the others, who do so “only because they love thee.” The rest of the quoted exchange derives from the “Houses of Healing” episode occurring later in the story (not included in the current movie; don’t know about the extended version yet to come) after the big battle in which Eowyn defeats the #1 Nazgul. Stabbing the demon sends her into a sort of toxic shock, and Aragorn comes to cure her (and others similarly afflicted.) There ensues an exchange between Aragorn, Eomer, (Eoywn’s brother) and Galdalf, in which the woman is psychologized (while she lies before them insensate.) This is a high point in the books for those interested in a “feminist” perspective on Tolkien. Aragorn goes on about how painful it was for him to have to reject her, but he also guesses that her problems go further back. Her brother Eomer is surprised, saying that, sure, times were tough, but he didn’t see her despair until she met Aragorn. Gandalf then corrects him with a great speech that was amazingly given to Wormtounge in the Two Towers movie (“the bitter watches of the night…") There it served effectively as a sort of mix of torture and seduction which expressed Wormtounge’s roll perfectly. In the book, it is Galdalf explaining that while Eomer had his warring to keep him busy, Eoywn was forced to attend powerlessly upon the declining king Theoden because she was a woman, even though she “had a spirit and courage at least the equal of yours.” But Aragorn tells Eomer that “I saw also what you saw,” but, “I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.” Beyond sexual issues, this should also be understood as a critique of the culture of Rohan (& men in general,) which glorifies war and is represented as having declined from the more civilized and learned days of the “men of old” who were in contact with the Elves and the gods. Aragorn represents this “higher” lineage, as shown by his capacity to be both a warrior and a healer, a combination which now seems contradictory. This dichotomy between the warrior and the cultured man is also expressed in Boromir and Faramir, the princes of Gondor. Eowyn is so raw that she’s not even a man, but this allows for the final resolution of the romances, in which she ends up marrying Faramir, the courtly son of Denethor, another part of the story barely acknowledged in the film. “And would you have your proud folk say of you: ‘There goes a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Numenor to choose?’ “I would,’ said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many.”
- alex 1-07-2004 12:33 am
Wow, this is a great etymology. Aragorn's line changes dramatically when it's said about someone rather than to someone. I blame the "greatest hits of the book" quality the movie sometimes had.
I just skimmed the Barthes quote. "Insidious" because it reflects the sexism of the early left?
- tom moody 1-07-2004 6:49 pm
nice Alex (check A's recent 12 days of Christmas posts, very nice!), thanks so much. I remembered there was more good stuff from the book in the Aragorn/Eowyn dynamic, you've saved me from re-reading! She's a pretty great character in the book, and only okay in the film. Funny that, hollywood doing a half-assed job writing a woman's role?
As far as the insidiousness of A Lover's Discourse...yeah I guess it's sexism that's bugging me. There's a real ring of truth to the book, such that it may give comfort to people in the throws of romantic woe, but it also feels prescriptive. I started this off with a post on love by Judith Merrill (she's talking about her dear friend Milton Acorn, with whom she argued bitterly on a regular basis) that seemed to break free of convention, while at the same time accounting for passion. Not easy - our notions of love are so tied up with myths and strange narrative expectations. Reading A Lover's Discourse makes it harder to achieve the kind of confidence and clarity that I see in Merrill.
- sally mckay 1-08-2004 4:25 am
I dont see why Aragorn has to be so rude i mean he could say things like "I love another" or some shit ,but no. Why cant he be with Arwen and Eowyn 'cause its a family film.
- Jessica (guest) 2-02-2004 5:34 am
I dont see why Aragorn has to be so rude i mean he could say things like "I love another" or some shit ,but no. Why cant he be with Arwen and Eowyn 'cause its a family film.
- Jessica (guest) 2-02-2004 5:34 am
opps posted twice sorry.
- Jessica 2-02-2004 5:35 am
sdfdsfdsf
- anonymous (guest) 2-11-2004 4:36 pm
works
- anonymous (guest) 7-10-2005 11:33 pm