For the first time in more than 50 years, Eastern screech owls have successfully bred in Central Park.
I had posted about the owls in a comment thread, and more on my own page. Then came the babies, which really got everyone excited. I saw them last Saturday, and they are indeed cute. Whether they are a positive development remains to be seen. I hope they will survive, but the prospects are not great. The reintroductions are part of "Project X", a Henry Stern era initiative carried out by the Urban Park Rangers. Stern was the flamboyant Parks Commissioner under Koch and Giuliani. He started out in the Lindsay administration, with a liberal philosophy that tried to balance environmentalism with outreach. He ended up as something of an eccentric, with a reputation for "tree-hugging" and extortion. He's out of office now, but the owls are still here (at least some of them).
Robert Decandido is the (former) Ranger, well know in Central Park, most involved in the owl release, although at times he has tried to downplay his role. Now that there's something to "crow" about, he's back to taking credit. I don't know him well, but I've found him both dopey and condescending, which is a weird combination. Apparently he's also pulled off a frog release, without any oversight at all, which may be even worse than the owl business. Tom Fiore, one of the Park's better birders (with whom I'm friendly) recently posted some criticism on an email list. Apparently, response was such that the moderator couldn't deal with it. Probably there's more going on in the newsgroups, but I'm not up on those. I'm pasting in some of the email below.
For my part, I largely agree with Tom. I'm generally non-interventionist, and I think we should always be especially careful when we get to the point of deciding that we need to do harm in order to do good (as J. Canale seems to advocate). As I understand it, the released birds were rehabilitation cases from the midwest, obtained without proper authorization, after local rehabbers declined to participate in the project. Some have died from eating poisoned rodents, although rat poisons are supposedly not used in the Park. (A dead migrant owl somehow "disappeared" before it could be analyzed.) The project has apparently never published scientific protocols, and the standards for success are unclear. So far, it's been more like stocking a hunting range. They've pumped more owls into the Park than it can really hold, territory-wise, so yes, there are some left, but most are dead. I'd rather see people discover the wonders of the Park by tracking down all the things that are here legitimately, but that takes some effort. Too many folks just want things handed to them, and the Parks Department has tried to do that, instead of improving the environment from the bottom up, which is the real way to bring these birds back.
SUBJECT: Eastern Screech-Owls et al., Central Park
Received from: Robert DeCandido, PhD
Hello All,
The discovery of the fledgling Eastern Screech-Owls (ESO's) on
Saturday, April 6th by Robert and Fran Anderson in Central Park came
as a great surprise to almost everyone. Indeed, the Andersons knew
that they were looking at something different, but it took Merrill
Higgins and his spotting scope to discover just how different. When
Merrill put his scope on those two gray screech-owl blobs high in the
elm tree, he identified something that had not been seen in Central
Park for approximately 50 years. In fact, the only birder still
around that I know of that clearly remembers breeding screech-owls in
Central Park is Irv Cantor who told me about watching fledglings in
the north end in the 1930's. Drew Panko pointed out to me, this pair
that just fledged young did so about a month earlier than any other
ESO pair in New York State (ever). This represents the second
successful (at least temporarily) reintroduction of a species in
Central Park completed in the last 10 days or so. (See the last
paragraph for the second success.)
Some info on ESO's in Manhattan, 1867-present:
In 1869 in Central Park, the Eastern Screech-Owl was described as
"permanent resident; abundant; build their nest(s) in the crevices of
the rocks in the Ramble." However, almost 20 years later, the owl was
described as "resident; not common" in Central Park. In the early
20th century, the Eastern Screech-Owl was one of 18 breeding bird
species found. By the mid-1920's, when there were only 8 species of
breeding bird species known in Central Park, there were still
"several resident pairs" of Eastern Screech-Owls. In the late 1940s,
the Eastern Screech-Owl was "seen almost every year. No summer
records in recent years." However, for the period 1948-1957, the owl
was a "permanent resident, occasionally found breeding." By 1970,
this owl was no longer listed as part of the avifauna of the park,
except for a single Eastern Screech-Owl seen on the 1955 Christmas
Bird Count. The last mention of breeding Eastern Screech-Owls in
Central Park was in the 1960's, but no specific information was
provided. At Inwood Hill Park, six ESO's were seen on a night walk
not too long ago.
The other species that has been successfully reintroduced into
Central Park is a small chorusing frog, the Spring Peeper (Hyla
crucifer). When walking at dusk through the park in the next few
days, listen for the call of this tree frog near the upper lobe (at
the Wood or Bank Rock Bridge) at the northwestern corner of the lake.
The best time to hear the whistles of the males is on mild evenings
right [around dusk]. You will never know how amazing it has been for
me to get spring peepers established in the park. Much more so than
ESO's ...
I am pleased that these two ideas are now well on their way to
becoming full-time resident species.
Robert DeCandido, PhD
(Note: Credit the following report, which includes personal opinions
& statements, to Tom Fiore only. Refutation of the latter is invited,
along with comment from 'eBirds' readers)
- Ring-necked Pheasant (at least 3 different males seen/heard; there
are reportedly five male pheasants roaming Central now, according to
a reliable CP Conservancy source. They're around the park, not all in
one area. No females have been released, & these pheasants are
reportedly NOT part of the outrageously misguided & wholly unethical
release program 'involving' some current & former NYC Parks
employees, which included releases of Screech Owls into CP (against
the expressed opinions & the combined wishes of ALL the members
present at a CP "Woodlands Committee" meeting, including veteran
birders, naturalists & Central Park Conservancy staff members & board
members, among others, whose expressed opinions & wishes NOT to go
ahead with the (original) Screech Owl release were completely ignored
by the NYC Urban Parks Rangers chief & his employee at the time, due
in part to their mutual relationship to the (former) Parks
Commissioner, & the utmost disregard for the welfare of these
helpless rehabilitated owls, sadly shown by those responsible for
promoting & facilitating the unwanted unfortunate release.
Releases of other creatures, Luna Moths as one example, were totally
ill-advised for Central Park & yet were carried forth in negligent
fashion to the detriment of the beautiful moths, none of which
survived or could have been expected to, given their foolish
publicity-driven release. There are further examples of such
unthinking & uncaring self-promotional excess: "project x" perhaps
stood for "project execrable" - a farce.
Central Park is not "wilderness", neither should it be a wildlife
amusement park. Screech Owls were once found naturally in Central
Park, & something caused their decline & disappearance. Anyone
claiming the title of biologist, & favoring the release of various
wildlife into a public park ought to be able to show good scientific
evidence that the ideas & proposals are sound. Thus far, only the
"publicity value" has been shown & realized.
Interestingly, the ex-NYC Parks Ranger involved in the Screech Owl
releases played down his role in the past year, only now to appear to
take credit for the "ideas". Claims that any releases are successful
are premature - any seasoned scientist would know better. The Spring
Peepers were released without the approval of anyone in either the
NYC Parks Dept. or Central Park Conservancy & invite the question,
can anyone release 'ANY' fauna &/or flora into NYC public parks of
their own volition? Hmm ... how about a Striped Skunk release, for
example? E. Timber Rattlesnakes ...? This is unethical behaviour by
someone who ought to know better!
- Best of luck to all, including cute 'lil baby Screechies.
- Tom Fiore
SUBJECT: Screech-Owl re-introduction
Received from: Joe Canale
It really is dismaying that some appear to be using legitimate
questions about the re-introduction program(s) as a ruse to fight
their CP turf wars. I do get the distinct feeling that some CP
birders would like the Screech owl re-introduction program to fail,
despite what they claim. Because at the very moment when it looks
like the program might just succeed, criticism from this quarter has
reached fever pitch.
Moreover, I think it's hypocritical for some members of the birding
community to trenchantly criticize these programs as mere publicity
stunts given their own involvement with efforts on the part of the
media to promote CP as a wildlife amusement park (I can remember a
best-selling book, and a few Times articles from the mid-90s which
feature our much celebrated resident animal rights ethicist touting
the value of *his* CP as a wildlife haven).
Personally, I appreciate the publicity value of these efforts,
because they serve to heighten community awareness of the ecological
value and potential of city parks, and local environs. That's a good
thing in and of itself.
Also, as a larger matter, we should be concerned less with the
welfare of individual animals and more with the long-term viability
of many different species. This may mean more and greater acts of
human intervention, impacting the lives of individual animals, but in
order to mitigate the deleterious effects of human activities.
And let us not forget that however benign it may be, birding itself
is an activity which we pursue for our own personal enjoyment often
at the expense of the welfare or comfort of individual birds.
BTW, can I list the owlets?
Joe
SUBJECT: Wildlife Reintroduction
Received from: Judy Rabi
Re: Tom Fiore's comments about reintroduction of wildlife
One can't help oohing and aahing over the fledgling Screech-owls, but
I very much agree with Tom that reintroduction is a tricky business
that needs to be undertaken, if at all, with care and consideration.
Certainly there should be strong scientific basis for reintroduction.
It should not be something willfully undertaken by one or even a few
people who see themselves as self appointed wildlife gurus.
BTW, we don't have to hate each other for seeing these issues
differently, but there should be vigorous debate before a matter of
this weight is a fait accompli, not afterwards.
Judy Rabi
** Must read **
Please note that the discussion of the re/introductions of fauna in
Central Park has been taking an inordinate amount of my "off-line"
time informing people over and over about the policies of not posting
messages to the list that are not on topic or are based only on posts
read and not all posts related to the topic. Jumping into the
conversation without reading the relevant posts becomes obvious to me
and instead of posting this to the list I have responded to the
individuals letting them know the reason and they still don't seem to
be satisfied. Maintaining this running conversation, daily, is
entirely too much time wasted on my part.
It was a mistake to post the messages to the list related to this
issue.
All discussions and posts related to the Central Park
re/introductions are now considered off topic and should be taken to
another forum.
"..but I've found him both dopey and condescending, which is a weird combination."
Have you ever been to a comic convention?
I agree with your non-interventionist stance.
Parks are nothing more than large terrariums and zoos. Most bears who have wandered beyond the boundaries of Yellowstone would tell you that. Hell, even the park is too big for it's own boundaries.
I don't want to say that all release programs are always bad. I think virtually all of the Peregrine Falcons on the east coast derive from human efforts to re-establish the species here, but in that case, it was done by real scientists. The reason for the decline was understood (DDT) and the environment (including tall, cliff-like buildings) was relatively hospitable for the birds, none of which is true of the Screech Owl program. BTW, one of the local nesting Falcon pairs now has their own webcam.
Anyone out there with a notion of visiting the West Coast should consider a stop in Kittitas County, Washington. Just spent a heavenly two days over there with a small group of birding friends.
Our main purpose was an owling expedition, which turned up only one owl. A hard one to see in any case, the Flammulated Owl is fairly secretive and one of North Americas smallest owls. Only 7 inches from head to tail with a whopping 18 inch wing span. After a fruitless two and a half-hours in the very cold central Washington woods, we were treated to one of the most glorious sights a birder can see.
We enticed (or should I say pissed off) the little guy with a taped voice of another male Flammulated Owl. He was in the distance, perhaps an acre away, hooting up a storm when we got out of the Mercer Island Parks Department van. Our fearless leader, Bob, had his tape deck in hand and commenced to call our small friend in.
He (the bird) appeared almost immediately - ever protective of "his" forest, landed in the top of a tall Doug Fir where we got a nice eyeful. As Bob trained a flashlight on him he suddenly swooped from the tree and circled, hovering above us, moth-like, in the light. And if that was not enough, he then landed in a baby Doug Fir not 20 feet away at EYE LEVEL!!!
As beat as I was by this time of night, I came fully awake to see this amazing, small but tenacious bird defending his turf from this group of strange bipeds who were rude enough to trick him into coming this close.
As soon as he realized we were no threat, he took off, stopping briefly to give a backward glance before silently flying off into the deep woods.
Just one of over 75 different birds that trip. What a way to spend a little time.
Oops, no HTML line breaks - as a guest I can not edit the post. Sorry about that.
I guess there should be some warning about that. I'll put it on the list. Thanks for contributing.
There is a scientific article about history of the Eastern Screech-Owl in New York City, including much information about the Central Park restoration effort. (The released owls have bred twice - 2002 and 2005.) See:
www.UrbanHabitats.org
It is a free download. A couple nice photos by Deborah Allen too.
Robert DeCandido
|
- dave 4-16-2002 3:12 pm
I had posted about the owls in a comment thread, and more on my own page. Then came the babies, which really got everyone excited. I saw them last Saturday, and they are indeed cute. Whether they are a positive development remains to be seen. I hope they will survive, but the prospects are not great. The reintroductions are part of "Project X", a Henry Stern era initiative carried out by the Urban Park Rangers. Stern was the flamboyant Parks Commissioner under Koch and Giuliani. He started out in the Lindsay administration, with a liberal philosophy that tried to balance environmentalism with outreach. He ended up as something of an eccentric, with a reputation for "tree-hugging" and extortion. He's out of office now, but the owls are still here (at least some of them).
Robert Decandido is the (former) Ranger, well know in Central Park, most involved in the owl release, although at times he has tried to downplay his role. Now that there's something to "crow" about, he's back to taking credit. I don't know him well, but I've found him both dopey and condescending, which is a weird combination. Apparently he's also pulled off a frog release, without any oversight at all, which may be even worse than the owl business. Tom Fiore, one of the Park's better birders (with whom I'm friendly) recently posted some criticism on an email list. Apparently, response was such that the moderator couldn't deal with it. Probably there's more going on in the newsgroups, but I'm not up on those. I'm pasting in some of the email below.
For my part, I largely agree with Tom. I'm generally non-interventionist, and I think we should always be especially careful when we get to the point of deciding that we need to do harm in order to do good (as J. Canale seems to advocate). As I understand it, the released birds were rehabilitation cases from the midwest, obtained without proper authorization, after local rehabbers declined to participate in the project. Some have died from eating poisoned rodents, although rat poisons are supposedly not used in the Park. (A dead migrant owl somehow "disappeared" before it could be analyzed.) The project has apparently never published scientific protocols, and the standards for success are unclear. So far, it's been more like stocking a hunting range. They've pumped more owls into the Park than it can really hold, territory-wise, so yes, there are some left, but most are dead. I'd rather see people discover the wonders of the Park by tracking down all the things that are here legitimately, but that takes some effort. Too many folks just want things handed to them, and the Parks Department has tried to do that, instead of improving the environment from the bottom up, which is the real way to bring these birds back.
SUBJECT: Eastern Screech-Owls et al., Central Park
Received from: Robert DeCandido, PhD
Hello All,
The discovery of the fledgling Eastern Screech-Owls (ESO's) on
Saturday, April 6th by Robert and Fran Anderson in Central Park came
as a great surprise to almost everyone. Indeed, the Andersons knew
that they were looking at something different, but it took Merrill
Higgins and his spotting scope to discover just how different. When
Merrill put his scope on those two gray screech-owl blobs high in the
elm tree, he identified something that had not been seen in Central
Park for approximately 50 years. In fact, the only birder still
around that I know of that clearly remembers breeding screech-owls in
Central Park is Irv Cantor who told me about watching fledglings in
the north end in the 1930's. Drew Panko pointed out to me, this pair
that just fledged young did so about a month earlier than any other
ESO pair in New York State (ever). This represents the second
successful (at least temporarily) reintroduction of a species in
Central Park completed in the last 10 days or so. (See the last
paragraph for the second success.)
Some info on ESO's in Manhattan, 1867-present:
In 1869 in Central Park, the Eastern Screech-Owl was described as
"permanent resident; abundant; build their nest(s) in the crevices of
the rocks in the Ramble." However, almost 20 years later, the owl was
described as "resident; not common" in Central Park. In the early
20th century, the Eastern Screech-Owl was one of 18 breeding bird
species found. By the mid-1920's, when there were only 8 species of
breeding bird species known in Central Park, there were still
"several resident pairs" of Eastern Screech-Owls. In the late 1940s,
the Eastern Screech-Owl was "seen almost every year. No summer
records in recent years." However, for the period 1948-1957, the owl
was a "permanent resident, occasionally found breeding." By 1970,
this owl was no longer listed as part of the avifauna of the park,
except for a single Eastern Screech-Owl seen on the 1955 Christmas
Bird Count. The last mention of breeding Eastern Screech-Owls in
Central Park was in the 1960's, but no specific information was
provided. At Inwood Hill Park, six ESO's were seen on a night walk
not too long ago.
The other species that has been successfully reintroduced into
Central Park is a small chorusing frog, the Spring Peeper (Hyla
crucifer). When walking at dusk through the park in the next few
days, listen for the call of this tree frog near the upper lobe (at
the Wood or Bank Rock Bridge) at the northwestern corner of the lake.
The best time to hear the whistles of the males is on mild evenings
right [around dusk]. You will never know how amazing it has been for
me to get spring peepers established in the park. Much more so than
ESO's ...
I am pleased that these two ideas are now well on their way to
becoming full-time resident species.
Robert DeCandido, PhD
(Note: Credit the following report, which includes personal opinions
& statements, to Tom Fiore only. Refutation of the latter is invited,
along with comment from 'eBirds' readers)
- Ring-necked Pheasant (at least 3 different males seen/heard; there
are reportedly five male pheasants roaming Central now, according to
a reliable CP Conservancy source. They're around the park, not all in
one area. No females have been released, & these pheasants are
reportedly NOT part of the outrageously misguided & wholly unethical
release program 'involving' some current & former NYC Parks
employees, which included releases of Screech Owls into CP (against
the expressed opinions & the combined wishes of ALL the members
present at a CP "Woodlands Committee" meeting, including veteran
birders, naturalists & Central Park Conservancy staff members & board
members, among others, whose expressed opinions & wishes NOT to go
ahead with the (original) Screech Owl release were completely ignored
by the NYC Urban Parks Rangers chief & his employee at the time, due
in part to their mutual relationship to the (former) Parks
Commissioner, & the utmost disregard for the welfare of these
helpless rehabilitated owls, sadly shown by those responsible for
promoting & facilitating the unwanted unfortunate release.
Releases of other creatures, Luna Moths as one example, were totally
ill-advised for Central Park & yet were carried forth in negligent
fashion to the detriment of the beautiful moths, none of which
survived or could have been expected to, given their foolish
publicity-driven release. There are further examples of such
unthinking & uncaring self-promotional excess: "project x" perhaps
stood for "project execrable" - a farce.
Central Park is not "wilderness", neither should it be a wildlife
amusement park. Screech Owls were once found naturally in Central
Park, & something caused their decline & disappearance. Anyone
claiming the title of biologist, & favoring the release of various
wildlife into a public park ought to be able to show good scientific
evidence that the ideas & proposals are sound. Thus far, only the
"publicity value" has been shown & realized.
Interestingly, the ex-NYC Parks Ranger involved in the Screech Owl
releases played down his role in the past year, only now to appear to
take credit for the "ideas". Claims that any releases are successful
are premature - any seasoned scientist would know better. The Spring
Peepers were released without the approval of anyone in either the
NYC Parks Dept. or Central Park Conservancy & invite the question,
can anyone release 'ANY' fauna &/or flora into NYC public parks of
their own volition? Hmm ... how about a Striped Skunk release, for
example? E. Timber Rattlesnakes ...? This is unethical behaviour by
someone who ought to know better!
- Best of luck to all, including cute 'lil baby Screechies.
- Tom Fiore
SUBJECT: Screech-Owl re-introduction
Received from: Joe Canale
It really is dismaying that some appear to be using legitimate
questions about the re-introduction program(s) as a ruse to fight
their CP turf wars. I do get the distinct feeling that some CP
birders would like the Screech owl re-introduction program to fail,
despite what they claim. Because at the very moment when it looks
like the program might just succeed, criticism from this quarter has
reached fever pitch.
Moreover, I think it's hypocritical for some members of the birding
community to trenchantly criticize these programs as mere publicity
stunts given their own involvement with efforts on the part of the
media to promote CP as a wildlife amusement park (I can remember a
best-selling book, and a few Times articles from the mid-90s which
feature our much celebrated resident animal rights ethicist touting
the value of *his* CP as a wildlife haven).
Personally, I appreciate the publicity value of these efforts,
because they serve to heighten community awareness of the ecological
value and potential of city parks, and local environs. That's a good
thing in and of itself.
Also, as a larger matter, we should be concerned less with the
welfare of individual animals and more with the long-term viability
of many different species. This may mean more and greater acts of
human intervention, impacting the lives of individual animals, but in
order to mitigate the deleterious effects of human activities.
And let us not forget that however benign it may be, birding itself
is an activity which we pursue for our own personal enjoyment often
at the expense of the welfare or comfort of individual birds.
BTW, can I list the owlets?
Joe
SUBJECT: Wildlife Reintroduction
Received from: Judy Rabi
Re: Tom Fiore's comments about reintroduction of wildlife
One can't help oohing and aahing over the fledgling Screech-owls, but
I very much agree with Tom that reintroduction is a tricky business
that needs to be undertaken, if at all, with care and consideration.
Certainly there should be strong scientific basis for reintroduction.
It should not be something willfully undertaken by one or even a few
people who see themselves as self appointed wildlife gurus.
BTW, we don't have to hate each other for seeing these issues
differently, but there should be vigorous debate before a matter of
this weight is a fait accompli, not afterwards.
Judy Rabi
** Must read **
Please note that the discussion of the re/introductions of fauna in
Central Park has been taking an inordinate amount of my "off-line"
time informing people over and over about the policies of not posting
messages to the list that are not on topic or are based only on posts
read and not all posts related to the topic. Jumping into the
conversation without reading the relevant posts becomes obvious to me
and instead of posting this to the list I have responded to the
individuals letting them know the reason and they still don't seem to
be satisfied. Maintaining this running conversation, daily, is
entirely too much time wasted on my part.
It was a mistake to post the messages to the list related to this
issue.
All discussions and posts related to the Central Park
re/introductions are now considered off topic and should be taken to
another forum.
- alex 4-16-2002 6:30 pm [add a comment]
"..but I've found him both dopey and condescending, which is a weird combination."
Have you ever been to a comic convention?
I agree with your non-interventionist stance.
Parks are nothing more than large terrariums and zoos. Most bears who have wandered beyond the boundaries of Yellowstone would tell you that. Hell, even the park is too big for it's own boundaries.
- steve 4-17-2002 4:45 am [add a comment]
Actually, I think the planet is a park and we've constructed a giant Habitrail inside it that's run amuck.
(sorry Dave, I couldn't find your link)
- steve 4-17-2002 8:12 am [add a comment]
I don't want to say that all release programs are always bad. I think virtually all of the Peregrine Falcons on the east coast derive from human efforts to re-establish the species here, but in that case, it was done by real scientists. The reason for the decline was understood (DDT) and the environment (including tall, cliff-like buildings) was relatively hospitable for the birds, none of which is true of the Screech Owl program. BTW, one of the local nesting Falcon pairs now has their own webcam.
- alex 4-18-2002 6:04 pm [add a comment]
Anyone out there with a notion of visiting the West Coast should consider a stop in Kittitas County, Washington. Just spent a heavenly two days over there with a small group of birding friends. Our main purpose was an owling expedition, which turned up only one owl. A hard one to see in any case, the Flammulated Owl is fairly secretive and one of North Americas smallest owls. Only 7 inches from head to tail with a whopping 18 inch wing span. After a fruitless two and a half-hours in the very cold central Washington woods, we were treated to one of the most glorious sights a birder can see. We enticed (or should I say pissed off) the little guy with a taped voice of another male Flammulated Owl. He was in the distance, perhaps an acre away, hooting up a storm when we got out of the Mercer Island Parks Department van. Our fearless leader, Bob, had his tape deck in hand and commenced to call our small friend in. He (the bird) appeared almost immediately - ever protective of "his" forest, landed in the top of a tall Doug Fir where we got a nice eyeful. As Bob trained a flashlight on him he suddenly swooped from the tree and circled, hovering above us, moth-like, in the light. And if that was not enough, he then landed in a baby Doug Fir not 20 feet away at EYE LEVEL!!! As beat as I was by this time of night, I came fully awake to see this amazing, small but tenacious bird defending his turf from this group of strange bipeds who were rude enough to trick him into coming this close. As soon as he realized we were no threat, he took off, stopping briefly to give a backward glance before silently flying off into the deep woods. Just one of over 75 different birds that trip. What a way to spend a little time.
- Jane Hathaway (guest) 5-23-2002 9:13 pm [add a comment]
Oops, no HTML line breaks - as a guest I can not edit the post. Sorry about that.
- Jane Hathaway (guest) 5-23-2002 9:15 pm [add a comment] [edit]
I guess there should be some warning about that. I'll put it on the list. Thanks for contributing.
- jim 5-23-2002 10:02 pm [add a comment]
There is a scientific article about history of the Eastern Screech-Owl in New York City, including much information about the Central Park restoration effort. (The released owls have bred twice - 2002 and 2005.) See:
www.UrbanHabitats.org
It is a free download. A couple nice photos by Deborah Allen too.
Robert DeCandido
- anonymous (guest) 12-23-2005 7:36 am [add a comment]